tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post113331443004228372..comments2024-03-17T11:05:22.464+00:00Comments on The Life And Opinions of Andrew Rilstone: Lipstick on My ScholarUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-53733079497974159532016-02-26T17:10:31.794+00:002016-02-26T17:10:31.794+00:00Andrew Rilstone :
"I think Lewis is really sa...<b>Andrew Rilstone :</b><br /><i>"I think Lewis is really saying 'Susan ceased to love Narnia, and therefore, became a pathetic figure -- a woman of 50, trying to be a girl of 21, capable of loving nothing apart from lipstick.'"</i><br /><br />What if CSL is not saying that Susan actually became this at fifty?<br /><br />Polly - while already dead, but before meeting Aslan - affirms this is what Susan was becoming.<br /><br />Note, for all the other books we do have a reasonable guess by whom the author or publisher C. S. Lewis knew of the events.<br /><br />But the one option for us knowing this for Last Battle is ... Susan Pevensie dreaming Last Battle and dreaming it as a series of "true dreams" - knowing them to be such (like if she could check her dreams about Silver Chair and the account given by Jill and Eustace to CSL ... if he is the "I" person who has interviewed Lucy in Voyage of the Dawn Treader.<br /><br />If so, SHE herself dreamed of Polly saying this, and she dreamed while still 21.<br /><br />It can have saved her from staying such till 50.<br /><br /><b>Abigail Nussbaum :</b><br /><i>"Nowadays, when I think of Susan, I think of what it must have been like for her to get the news. Her siblings, her parents, her cousin, her adopted aunt and uncle--everyone she loves in the world--have died a horrible, sudden death. Did Lewis really believe that Susan deserved that pain, or did he truly imagine that 'but they're all in heaven' was sufficient to comfort her? Did he even care?"</i><br /><br />That can have been the price she had to pay ... BUT not just for the things mentioned by Polly (in my opinion in her dream).<br /><br />I consider she made sth worse, like betraying Lucy to a shrink for still believing in Narnia (and doing more of it than the other friends of Narnia) - and that by the time she dreamed, she was not needing an extra reminder of it and so was spared Polly's comment about that.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-49722309566712641602016-02-24T12:23:53.671+00:002016-02-24T12:23:53.671+00:00John's analysis is actually pretty good, if ex...John's analysis is actually pretty good, if expressed with a rather unhelpful degree of contempt for those he is criticising. I don't think it's necessary to portray Pullman or Rowling as "shallow people" or "liars" in order to explain that they have rather missed the point that Lewis was making.Mike Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06039663158335543317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-43869993614873009112016-02-24T12:19:16.943+00:002016-02-24T12:19:16.943+00:00John,
This thread is over eleven years old, and t...John,<br /><br />This thread is over eleven years old, and the comment you are responding to is eight years old. I generally treat the older threads as "closed" for comments. I'm happy to put this comment up (I only pre-moderate the old threads, which get a certain amount of spam) but I don't propose to re-open it. You are, of course, as welcome as anyone else to start posting here now I've opened up the comments section again. I fully expect that you will adhere to the Traditions of this board, in the same way that you'd expect me to adhere to certain rules and standards if I posted on yours.<br /><br />AndrewAndrew Rilstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05786623930392936889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-21372325027578816802016-02-23T19:26:54.536+00:002016-02-23T19:26:54.536+00:00"but if she actually does anything to try to ..."but if she actually does anything to try to attract a man, that's grounds for criticism."<br /><br />This comment, like far too many here, are simply blithe misreadings of what was said and what the argument was about, if not blatantly ignoring the argument.<br /><br />It is fascinating to watch: Lewis makes the rather unremarkable and commonplace observation that anyone who ceases to be a 'friend to Narnia' for any reason will not be rewarded by the Lord of Narnia. In this case, the thing being described is shallowness and vanity, that is, Susan's good looks turn into a temptation for her to be self absorbed.<br /><br />And, of course, all the shallow people who cannot get the obvious point being made, from Pullman to Rawlings, have to substitute 'sex' or 'growing up' or some other idol for the idol that actually tempted Susan, the flattery of modern fashion and invitations to parties.<br /><br />The vehemence of their protest is because their idols, sex or maturity or whatever, are just as much idols as vanity and shallowness. Anything that severs you from heaven is good enough for Old Uncle Screwtape, and, of course, the false accusation has to be leveled that Mr Lewis has some bad and hidden motive for saying God is more important than vanity. Obviously he cannot love God as the source of all lovable things, therefore he must be motivated by hatred or fear of whatever is being idolized: perhaps he is afraid of sex, in which case he is a sexist, or perhaps he is afraid of growing up, in which case he is pathetic.<br /><br />See how easily the false accusation game works? A man says something unremarkable "Vanity severs one from God" and the liars have to mock up a make believe of what he said, "Sexy women are bad!" "Grown ups are bad!" in order to depict him as a neurotic, someone to be safely dismissed without a hearing. <br /><br />Except it is never safe to dismiss a truthful man with a lie, because some of us in the audience can see what you are doing. John Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492341011399861469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-17154963161451943042014-08-15T18:37:55.414+01:002014-08-15T18:37:55.414+01:00Is it possible that one reason Susan fell into bei...Is it possible that one reason Susan fell into being too interested in "lipstick and nylons and invitations" was precisely that (once she left Narnia and had to be again a young woman in WWII England) she so missed being a courted Queen in Narnia that _this_ was her substitute satisfaction: the nearest, she thought, that she could ever hope to get to the old days, ever again?KateGladstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07062492442607584456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-87708895333609266472014-01-06T11:29:19.644+00:002014-01-06T11:29:19.644+00:00An interesting entry and an even more interesting ...An interesting entry and an even more interesting discussion! I, too have a distaste for The Last Battle. I read the book quite a while ago and it's just dawned upon that Susan was left behind. The book had bothered me when I read it, but not because of "the Problem of Susan", but because of how abrupt everything seemed. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I could see how Lewis had pieced his world and Aslan's Land together, but having pretty much everyone important die seemed... <em>too fictional</em>? I, as many others, did not catch the hints at Christianity as a child. They were simply books with a great creature who seemed to know a lot about the worlds that existed. (Though, I suppose that should have been a hint towards the omnipotent being that is God.)<br /><br />I don't suppose I'll ever be satisfied with The Last Battle and how the Chronicles ended, but it makes me wonder... Why haven't any of Lewis' critics tried to write a proper end for Susan themselves? Surely it isn't as satisfying as seeing the author himself tell us that she has been redeemed, but it sure beats critiquing a man who's been dead for five decades.<br /><br />C.S. Lewis himself has said that Susan may find her way back to Aslan, so why don't we narrate that ourselves? Our imaginations can work for more than just arguments, you know. ;)<br /><br />(Side note: If you see < em >, it's because Blogger apparently reads old HTML codes but not new ones. em stands for emphasis and should create italics.)Pondering Readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-67408689487970518142011-12-03T12:29:52.728+00:002011-12-03T12:29:52.728+00:00Great entry. Neil Gaiman's story, the 'pro...Great entry. Neil Gaiman's story, the 'problem of Susan', I encountered today, and it disturbed me a lot, particularly the dream sequence at the end. I thought to myself, 'It's wrong, but I don't know where.' It's really nice to read a clear, cogently argued account of Lewis' thought in this matter. Thanks!Andrew P Partingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08194101533362757732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-33351334105302549842010-12-29T18:33:09.115+00:002010-12-29T18:33:09.115+00:00Just a postscript - Lewis in his letter to one chi...Just a postscript - Lewis in his letter to one child did say that we don't know what happened to Susan, and she could well have found her way back to the light.TonyTheProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10486414706261508994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-65418982637481730782010-12-29T18:32:03.801+00:002010-12-29T18:32:03.801+00:00I've just come across your posting. I had a gr...I've just come across your posting. I had a grandmother who was a deal old lady, but would (as my mother said) look like mutton dressed as lamb; even when she was very old (and in a nursing home), when I went to take her for a drive, she had to put on the lipstick, the rouge on the cheeks, and it didn't make her look any younger. She was also notorious in the family for being 40 for around 20 years, to anyone who asked her age. She was sweet, but she was obsessed by her appearance in a way that my great-aunts (of around the same age) never were, and in many ways she was far more immature than them (even in her 80s)<br /><br />When I read the passage about Susan, that struck a chord, because I could see how someone could become fixated on appearance so much, especially the bit about wanting to be a certain age, then trying desperately not to leave it.TonyTheProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10486414706261508994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-34886069433291413562009-12-18T20:46:32.035+00:002009-12-18T20:46:32.035+00:00I don't know, you call case closed, but it see...I don't know, you call case closed, but it seems pretty clear that Susan is allowed to be desired, but only passively. She can be hot, and men can ask for her hand in marriage, but if she actually does anything to try to attract a man, that's grounds for criticism.<br /><br />Additionally, Susan is said to be excessively interested in obviously female things. It's not that Susan is too into jazz music or gambling. <br /><br />And you may say she's not sent to hell, but what do you call it when you're 21 and your whole family dies in a train wreck? That's a pretty crap fate.JordanBakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955209974719209394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-50205449265680209232009-04-15T08:13:00.000+01:002009-04-15T08:13:00.000+01:00Rather insightful. However, the Problem of Susan, ...Rather insightful. However, the Problem of Susan, for me, will forever remain C. S. Lewis's big damn problem (flaw?). His attitudes toward female sexuality are just bizarre.<br /><br />At the end of LWW, Lewis rewards Susan with long hair, beauty beyond comparison, and numerous marriage proposals from the kings of faraway lands with the assumption that her marriage(s) will benefit the kingdom of Narnia in some way. These proposals are so far from personal romance that they have to be buffered through an ambassador. <br /><br />Susan returns to her adolescence after experiencing some 500 years as a woman with legendary beauty. And this is a *reward.* This is what Aslan wanted of her--this was her reward for deposing his political rival Jadis. C. S. Lewis wouldn't have made her into this knockout princess at the end of LWW if that wasn't what Susan was supposed to be. <br /><br />So we're treated with this image of her as a beauty queen, and then in the Last Battle we learn that Susan has taken an (allegedly) all-consuming interest in making herself appear beautiful and desirable to other men. <br /><br />Well...duh. <br /><br />What else is she going to do? Join a convent? Become Aslan's virginal bride a la Lucy? <br /><br />So, Lewis presents with a binary, most likely an unintentional one, but a terrible binary nonetheless. It's fine to be a pretty pretty princess, courted by hundreds of suitors, when you're under the subjugation of male dominance. Susan is very much Peter's "queen consort," though I hesitate to use that phrase because of rabid and weird Peter/Susan shippers out there. He is the High King, the other three siblings defer to his authority. Furthermore, Aslan is a distinctly male deity, who deplores sexual proclivities. In other words, it's fine for Susan to dress up, wear lipstick and nylons, and receive invitations when they're filtered through the hegemonic structure of Aslan and Peter. *But,* when she returns to earth, and attempts to discover her sexuality without patriarchal influence, her actions are frowned upon. Not just frowned upon, but she would be *denied* entry to heaven should she die imminently. <br /><br />As Lewis writes, Susan has become somewhat of an atheist with Narnia. She does not accept Aslan's rule in her life. She attempts to regain what she had spent 500 years doing, and she's punished for it. <br /><br />Female sexuality, then, is only good when it's regulated by patriarchy. And that's why Susan is innocent, and C. S. Lewis can go slap himself with a sea bass.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01329081127744262956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-33856407781276684032009-03-16T21:19:00.000+00:002009-03-16T21:19:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-35856562446765544012008-02-19T22:22:00.000+00:002008-02-19T22:22:00.000+00:00Thanks for a fascinating discussion.I read Dawn Tr...Thanks for a fascinating discussion.<BR/><BR/>I read <I>Dawn Treader</I> and <I>Last Battle</I> a good deal later than the other Chronicles, and I liked them less (not just because I was grown up, I think). The morality of <I>Dawn Treader</I> is rather basic: bravery is good; whinging is bad. And <I>Last Battle</I> is simply missing something as a novel. It just isn't satisfying.<BR/><BR/>The theology of it is also annoying: Good done in the name of Tash is actually accorded to Aslan, while bad done in the name of Aslan is actually service to Tash. I can agree with the notion that being good is the most important thing, but this analysis is far too simplistic, even for a ten-year-old, surely?<BR/><BR/>Lewis stated that he didn't intentionally write <I>Wardrobe</I> as an analogy. It started, he said, with pictures. And certainly he borrowed a lot of imagery from Greek mythology, most obviously Mr Tumnus. It does work as an analogy, but it also works as a novel in its own right, which <I>Last Battle</I> certainly doesn't. And that, I think, is its problem.<BR/><BR/>Someone made the interesting point that Narnia has two devils: Tash and the White Witch. And neither is a fallen angel. I think this shows that Lewis was prepared to write a good story, and let the analogy go hang, if he felt it was better to do that. In <I>Last Battle</I>, he was probably just a bit careless. Perhaps the suggestion that he was getting tired of Narnia isn't far off the mark.The boy with the green tambourinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438978647785274597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-55834661812400257622007-11-22T11:24:00.000+00:002007-11-22T11:24:00.000+00:00I agree that nylon and red lipstick are really ver...I agree that nylon and <A HREF="http://amolife.com/makeup/red-lipstick.html" REL="nofollow">red lipstick</A> are really very important:)Valeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12405298981801420560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-45803905631181999882007-10-30T21:17:00.000+00:002007-10-30T21:17:00.000+00:00Two years after this was posted, and I still feel ...Two years after this was posted, and I still feel the need to comment ...<BR/><BR/>On re-reading "C. S. Lewis: letters to children" I found a letter in which Lewis himself explicitly states his own understanding of Susan's situation -- something, somehow, seems to have gone unquoted so far in this discussion:<BR/><BR/>-------------------------------<BR/><BR/>22 January 1957<BR/><BR/>Dear Martin<BR/><BR/>The books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there is plenty of time for her to mend, and perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end -- in her own way.<BR/><BR/>-------------------------------<BR/><BR/>All of which is rather a long way from "Lewis considered a girl reaching sexual maturity to be such a terrible thing she should be banished to hell".Mike Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06039663158335543317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-78752844208981308212007-02-07T00:13:00.000+00:002007-02-07T00:13:00.000+00:00Excellent article, I didn't read all the comments,...Excellent article, I didn't read all the comments, so if someone has already said this, I apologize.<br /><br />Do you suppose it's a coincidence that the two characters who come down the hardest on Susan: Jill and Polly, are the ones who are the least like conventional 1950's females?<br /><br />Jill, with the possible exception of Aravis, is Lewis's female character with the most girl power. She's sent off on a quest in the wild lands of the North, and she's an excellent scout and pathfinder. No other female character is subjected to a battle the way Jill is. You can't imagine Susan doing the things that Jill does. Jill, with her "tomboyish ways" would have gotten hard time back in England from the girly-girls with their lipstick, nylons and invitations.<br /><br />Polly, as an unmarried woman also defies the conventions for women in her age. Women in the mold that Susan goes into also would have looked down their noses at a woman like Polly Plummer.Ivrinielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961017447783413139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1137428984038319252006-01-16T16:29:00.000+00:002006-01-16T16:29:00.000+00:00113 comments? I thought I'd check back after my p...113 comments? I thought I'd check back after my post linking here got yet another google referral. I remain impressed Andrew, and still haven't seen the film yet...<BR/><BR/>Not sure I get the idea of Lyra as a Mary Sue though, seems a little missing the point. Ah well.MatGBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02821264556751176639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1137061971956420102006-01-12T10:32:00.000+00:002006-01-12T10:32:00.000+00:00In honour of De-lurking Week, I step forward to po...In honour of <A HREF="http://papernapkin.typepad.com/papernapkin/2006/01/hello_out_there.html" REL="nofollow">De-lurking Week</A>, I step forward to point out that the doctrine of "obedience" has been used many, many times by religiously-inclined advisers precisely to send abused & beaten wives back to violent &/or drunken husbands even quite recently. It was far more common, though, before the last half of the last century. Sometimes the suffering as seen as "your cross to bear", and a test of strength & virtue.<BR/> <BR/>Hearing this so often meant that when I read <I>That Hideous Strength</I>, I was repelled & shocked by that theme.Mezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14697501074083183060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1136391822609377492006-01-04T16:23:00.000+00:002006-01-04T16:23:00.000+00:00First: the essay was excellent, and this has been ...First: the essay was excellent, and this has been an interesting discussion--I actually read through all 111 comments.<BR/><BR/><I>You may see this as a capacity for pleasure being spoilt by too much analysis; I prefer to say that education is the best defence against propaganda.</I><BR/><BR/>Please don't tell me you're forgetting that Lewis was a professor of literature--he may not have appreciated "modern" education, but he must have believed in education. Particularly of the classics, philosophy, and history (not a bad curriculum).<BR/><BR/>Regarding Disney: Disney distributed the film, but they were not the ones actually making it. I'm a little irritated that so few people are making the distinction.<BR/><BR/>As for Susan and all the deaths: sometimes as a writer you have to kill characters you love, even destroy a world if the story requires it. In Lewis's case, he needed to destroy Narnia because Narnia wasn't the ultimate goal; the ultimate goal is Aslan's country. You can't experience the very best, the ultimate Joy of Aslan's country if you don't allow Narnia to end. So he does. With Susan, yes, he simply makes a point. But to some degree you have to say her character brings her in that direction. With the rest, they needed the reuniting and in Lewis's worldview death is the gateway to real life, a life more substantial, more real. <BR/><BR/>There was a famous writer who once said, "I have to kill all my little darlings." An good author who cares may weep for them, but will kill them nonetheless.Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06575673813724483738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1136321503356876782006-01-03T20:51:00.000+00:002006-01-03T20:51:00.000+00:00Lyra is a Mary Sue. It is for this reason more th...Lyra is a <A HREF="http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html" REL="nofollow">Mary Sue</A>. It is for this reason more than anything regarding faith or 'religion' that I threw away <I>Amber Spyglass</I> in disgust. I'm not especially interested in reading other people's wish-fulfillment fantasies.Aynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01815253311657208688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1135466693356656352005-12-24T23:24:00.000+00:002005-12-24T23:24:00.000+00:00(4) My forthcoming book "The Cair Paravel Code" wi...<I>(4) My forthcoming book "The Cair Paravel Code" will conclusively prove that Lucy was Aslan's consort and the mother of his cubs.</I><BR/><BR/>A compelling theory, but it seems that the filmmakers disagree with you - they're shipping Lucy with Mr. Tumnus.Abigail Nussbaumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08562462228380637583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1135038922084303132005-12-20T00:35:00.000+00:002005-12-20T00:35:00.000+00:00Hi, just a though picking up an earlier thread tha...Hi, just a though picking up an earlier thread that it is Susan who rejects Aslan. As a cradle Catholic this is the theology that I've been inculcated with - God doesn't want anyone to go to hell but the sin of Pride makes people choose to reject Him. As a result they condemn themselves to everlasting torment.<BR/>Also on the latest thread about obedience as I recall that is Germaine Greer's argument defending Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew. It is only when Kate overcomes her pride to subserve herself to her partnership with Petruchio that she full develops as a person. To quote the so-called prayer of St Francis "it is in giving that we receive, <BR/>it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, <BR/>and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life" or in an alternative version "For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. <BR/>It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. <BR/>It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life."Stephen Donaghyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14156923695531590599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1134738036902290372005-12-16T13:00:00.000+00:002005-12-16T13:00:00.000+00:00When Lewis found that William Gresham was prone to...When Lewis found that William Gresham was prone to drunkeness and violence, he advised Joy to divorce him.Andrew Rilstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05786623930392936889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1134737198046284332005-12-16T12:46:00.000+00:002005-12-16T12:46:00.000+00:00That's exactly the point: obedience is presented a...That's exactly the point: obedience is presented as par tof the true essence of love: a marriage which is working perfectly will involve obedience. <BR/><BR/>You may or may not agree with this, of course. But if you want to attack Lewis's views, attack them directly: don't set up a straw man by applying them to a degenerate case.<BR/><BR/>But in the case of a wife-beater, the marriage is clearly not working properly for reasons other than lack of obedience, and therefore the question of obedience becomes moot. It would be papering over far deeper cracks. A violent marriage has already lost its 'true essence' and to regain it the violence would have to stop; the obedience advice in that case would be inapplicable, whereas it is (according to Ransom, who may or may not reflect Lewis's views exactly, remember) applicable to the sitution in <I>That Hideous Strength</I>.SKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09102522819364312684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-1134736751208677582005-12-16T12:39:00.000+00:002005-12-16T12:39:00.000+00:00Fundamentally, the advice Ransom gives is "go to h...Fundamentally, the advice Ransom gives is "go to him in obedience, and you will find love". I know it's a little unfair to apply this to a degenerate case, but ISTR that the idea of obedience is presented as the true essence of marriage in the book. If something is presented as being universally applicable, it's not unreasonable to see how it applies in every case.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082868759668427041noreply@blogger.com