tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post6938857617237631879..comments2024-03-17T11:05:22.464+00:00Comments on The Life And Opinions of Andrew Rilstone: More Sea Men Than I Could Cope WithUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-14739040263651425772011-12-21T01:40:45.178+00:002011-12-21T01:40:45.178+00:00It does seem that some moderns like to suggest tha...It does seem that some moderns like to suggest that Tintagil might actually be Camelot, which is just silly.<br /><br />For one thing, Camelot, in the medieval romances, when details are given, is always an inland city, not on the seacoast. Indeed, in many romances Tintagil is a city of King Mark’s, not a city of King Arthur’s.<br /><br />But still, Tintagil does sometimes appear as a city where King Arthur holds court. One such romance is <i>Erec et Enide</i> by Chrétien de Troyes which has been translated many times into English (unlike many medieval Arthurian romances) and is likely to have actually been read by some of those in Tintagil who try to connect Arthur with Tintagil.<br /><br />In this romance, towards the end, Erec and his wife Enide and their friend Guivret remain in Arthur’s court until the death of Erec’s father. Then messengers are sent from the court of Erec’s father to seek for Erec whom they find at Tintagil with Arthur.<br /><br /><i>There's a theory, isn't there, that "Camelot" meant "wherever King Arthur was".</i><br /><br />There may be such theory, but I do not know it. Arthur holds court at many different cities in the medieval romances. In the early poems it is Cardueil (probably Carlisle) where Arthur most often holds court. Camelot only appears once in Chrétien de Troyes’ <i>Lancelot</i> and once in Wolfram von Eschenbach’s <i>Parzival</i>. It is in the later prose romances and some poems derived from them that Camelot appears as the city where Arthur mostly holds court. But even in those late romances Arthur often holds court in other cites, following the custom of the kings of the 12th century.<br /><br />Camelot is there clearly a city, distinguished from other cities like London, Cardueil, Carlion, and Tintagil, not a term for just any place where Arthur holds court. It is situated on the river of Camelot by the forest of Camelot which is not much help in locating it. <br /><br />J. Neale Carman in his <i>A Study of the Pseudo-Map Cycle of Arthurian Romance</i> thinks that in the medieval French <i>Mort Artu</i> the author means to identify Camelot with Westminster, which in the 12th century when the work was written waa a major royal residence but not yet part of the city of London. Arthur takes two days to travel from London to Winchester, spending the night at the castle of Escalot, then returns from Winchester to Escalot, but goes from Escalot to Camelot, not to London. Escalot would obviously then be Guildford, approximately halfway between London and Winchester. which in the 12th century was also a royal holding.<br /><br />The barge containing the dead maiden of Escalot floats from Escalot to Camelot and is so laken to be thought to be floating on the Thames which runs by Guildford and Westminster.<br /><br />Carman makes it quite clear that he does not believe that the author of the <i>Mort Artu</i> was necessarily correct in his surmise and that this apparent identification of Camelot with Westminster is probably not a genuine one.<br /><br />Malory identifies Camelot with Winchester. But there is no particular reason to think that identification is correct or that any modern identification is correct, or that anything in any medieval Arhurian romance is historical.<br /><br />Still some medieval Arthurian tales do have Arthur hold court in Tintagil.Jallanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09587108643251258868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-78663284873542267492011-12-18T17:10:55.059+00:002011-12-18T17:10:55.059+00:00It's some years since I went there, but I got ...It's some years since I went there, but I got the impression that the tourist industry very definitely wants you to think that Tintagil is Camelot. (There's the "hall of the round table" on the high street, which I have to say I really like, even though it's pure kitsch.) I think the town now tries to style itself as Glastonbury by the sea -- crystal and Tarot shops, rather than Ye Olde Knightes of the Rounde Table theme park. I seem to think that C.S Lewis said the same thing in the 1920s -- popular imagination made it Camelot, although its really the home of King Mark in the Tristan story. <br /><br />There's a theory, isn't there, that "Camelot" meant "wherever King Arthur was" -- so he might "hold" Camelot at Winchester one year and Glastonbury next year. But I am not actually sure if there is an scholarly basis for this other than the Pendragon role playing game...Andrew Rilstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16934052271846235431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-88071435439452311972011-12-18T16:54:34.407+00:002011-12-18T16:54:34.407+00:00Still, I think the identification of Tintagil with...<i>Still, I think the identification of Tintagil with Camelot is pretty much a product of Victorian romanticism.</i><br /><br />I am unaware of anyone, a Victorian or otherwise, who has <i>identified</i> Tintagil with Camelot. They are always, so far as I know, distinguished from one another in accounts where both appear (none of which are probably historical).<br /><br /><i>And I can find little canonical justfication for the existence of King Arthur's Car Park. Or the consumption of Excaliburgers.</i><br /><br />Quite agreed. Some people are always, (and have always) been ready to create fraudulent traditions to attract the tourists and then to embellish those fraudulent traditions to an absurd level. But sometimes invented traditions turn out to be true, in the sense that they are congruent with genuine traditions (not of course in the sense that those traditions are proved to be true).Jallanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09587108643251258868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-59551695942917880822011-12-18T10:22:26.789+00:002011-12-18T10:22:26.789+00:00Still, I think the identification of Tintagil with...Still, I think the identification of Tintagil with Camelot is pretty much a product of Victorian romanticism. And I can find little canonical justfication for the existence of King Arthur's Car Park. Or the consumption of Excaliburgers.Andrew Rilstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16934052271846235431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-71631542749053051902011-12-18T03:07:47.389+00:002011-12-18T03:07:47.389+00:00(A pedant would point out that King Arthur didn’t ...<i>(A pedant would point out that King Arthur didn’t ride out of Tintagil, although in the most militantly Welsh version of the story, he was conceived there, so I have.)</i><br /><br />Not really so. Arthur is said to hold his court at Tintagil in some medieval tales.<br /><br />The German medieval romance known as <i>Diu Krône ‘The Crown’</i> by Heinrich von dem Türlin describes a great Chistmas feast held by Arthur at Tintagil to which a strange, fishy dwarf comes, described in a way that makes him seem close kindred to Namor’s people as early drawn by Bill Everet, riding on a steed that is half seal and half dolphin.<br /><br />Following the feast, Gawain and most of Arthur’s knights take off in secret to a nearby tournament not telling Arthur, for they fear that Arthur would forbid them go. Only three knights are left behind with Arthur, apparently knights that are so unpopular that they have not been let in on the joke: Sir Kay, Gales the Bald, and Amauguin. Then Arthur is indeed described as riding forth from Tintagil with these three kmights seeking an encounter with the non-Arthurian knight Gazozein of Dragoz, whom Guenevere has praised for riding in the cold of winter without armour dressed only in a light tunic as though it were the height of summer.Jallanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09587108643251258868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-16685658712205988112011-12-01T10:21:52.289+00:002011-12-01T10:21:52.289+00:00PedantPedantAndrew Rilstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16934052271846235431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9987513.post-24632380731705786792011-12-01T00:28:13.035+00:002011-12-01T00:28:13.035+00:00Cephalapod?
Am I missing a hilarious joke or did ...Cephalapod?<br /><br />Am I missing a hilarious joke or did you just get overexcited and mean cetaceans?<br /><br />Agree with your view of the band, though, obvo.Graham MF Greenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12401026199760777673noreply@blogger.com